"If you approach people from a place of shame or discomfort with who you are, they will pick up on that and they will jump on it. I've never been ashamed of who I am. I wasn't ashamed when I was a butch lesbian; I'm not ashamed as a trans man. And that made all the difference for me with my clients."

Spencer Bergstedt
Partner
Bergstedt Wolff P.S.

Spencer Bergstedt is general practitioner at a two-lawyer firm in Lynnwood, Washington. He is a leader in the transgender community and pioneer in the legal community. He was born a woman in Sweden but grew up in the United States. He came out as a lesbian when he was 16.He transitioned from female to male identity after establishing his legal practice in Seattle. He is the author of Translegalities: A Legal Guide for Transsexuals.

What prior experience did you have with attorneys or with the judicial system before you went to law school, if any?

Really nothing with the judicial system itself, but plenty of contact with attorneys. I think I'd always been sort of a law and justice kind of person. The first thing that I ever really wanted to be was a cowboy followed very swiftly by wanting to be a sheriff. So I think being a lawyer just really appealed to me in general.

How did your parents handle you coming out as a lesbian?

They weren't so hot about that idea.

Initially?

Well, for quite a while, actually. I think I was maybe 16 when I came out to them. My dad was pretty cool about it. He was, like, well, "you know, if that's who you are, that's who you are." My mother, on the other hand, freaked out about it. It took her a long time to come around. But since I transitioned my parents completely changed. They've told everybody they know.

So they had an easier time dealing with you being transgender?

They had a much easier time dealing with me transitioning than being perceived as being a lesbian. I think that my transition put a lot of pieces of the puzzle in place for them, from my earliest childhood until the point that I transitioned.

And I assume it put some pieces of the puzzle in place for you as well?

Oh absolutely. Yeah. And now, they're to the point, my mom actually said to me, "You know, honestly, I forget."

She forgets that you used to be a woman?

Yes.

How affirming.

And my extended family has been totally groovy about it, too.

In your professional life with clients and so forth, do you make a point of trying to be out as transgender, or is it really more about you're a man and that's the identity? How do you deal with that?

Really it depends on the client. I'd say probably for 99 percent of the people that I come in contact with, it's a nonissue. I'm just some guy that's their attorney. My history is irrelevant to them. And it's not relevant to the work that I'm doing for them. I do get a fair number of clients who come to me because I am FTM [female to male transsexual] and they're either trans or partnered with somebody trans. So they're seeking out an attorney who will understand their history and their issues and also be sensitive to using appropriate language and pronouns with them and treating them respectfully. I get people that come in during varying stages of transition and I think one of the challenges for people that are not familiar with trans people is that you may have somebody sitting across the table from you who, to outward appearances, may still appear to be male or female but their identity is opposite to what their appearance is. I just take it as, if you look male but you tell me your name is Kathy, I'm going to refer to you as Kathy and as she. Because to me it's not the outward part that's important.

When you went to law school, you went as a woman and as openly lesbian?

A big rompin' stompin' butch lesbian.

How do you define butch?

More masculine presentation. I think that the challenge in being a butch lesbian is really more about the butch part than the lesbian part. It really is more about gender presentation than it is about sexual orientation. And I actually had this discussion recently with an attorney in town who is in a position to hire at one of the larger firms and he was going on about how, "Oh no, we have a lot of openly gay and lesbian people working at the firm." And I said, "Yeah, and how many of the women are butch?" And he went, "Oh, uh, well that's a really good point." I said, "Yeah, you know the reality is you're still hiring Ken and Barbie. You're still fitting people into a paradigm of what you think your clients are going to be comfortable with."

And the premise of that being that clients may at this point be comfortable with the concept of their attorney being gay or lesbian so long as their gender is presented "appropriately"?

Exactly. So your men can't be too effeminate and your women can't be too masculine.

Looking back at law school, how was the experience of being openly lesbian and butch?

Generally pretty good. There were a number of openly gay or lesbian students. So in school I didn't experience any problems.

Did you experience any trouble trying to get a job?

That was the biggest issue for me in terms of actually doing this for a living -- just getting that first job. You would think that with my resume somebody would have snapped me up. I had good grades in college and law school, a track record of commitment to community service, and a strong leadership history. This was around 1987. I sent out 150 resumes to Seattle and Portland firms. I had 20 on campus interviews. I got one call back interview. No job offer. Eventually, I went into business for myself because no one would hire me.

What advice do you have for young attorneys who are transgender or are thinking about transitioning and just starting out in their legal career?

I think what's hard is that law firms, while they have gotten better about having out gay and lesbian attorneys, they're like a lot of other employers — they just don't know what to do with trans people. So they end up doing the same kinds of things that many other employers do that make it more difficult for the person who's transitioning. They go through the whole rigmarole about "what bathroom are you going to use" instead of just saying, "Oh, okay, so you're identifying as male. Great! Then please start using the men's room." How hard is that?

What about the more subtle personal interactions that are so important in the legal profession, such as making a good impression, pleasing a judge, appearing competent or gaining the trust of the client? How can someone who's transitioning and practicing as an attorney address those issues?

Well, I can only speak from my experience and what I did. I sent a letter to each one of my clients that said "Look, here's the situation: as of this date, this is the name I'm going by, this is how I identify, I am now living my life as a man. I'm happy to answer any questions you have, also I understand that you may be really uncomfortable with this. If that's the case and you'd like another attorney, let me know and I'll help facilitate finding you somebody else." I didn't lose one client. Not one. But I also approached it from a position of pride in who I was. If you approach people from a place of shame or discomfort with who you are, they will pick up on that and they will jump on it. I've never been ashamed of who I am. I wasn't ashamed when I was I a butch lesbian; I'm not ashamed as a trans man. And that made all the difference for me with my clients. I was confident and straight up about it. I remember distinctly one client at the time that was a Southern Baptist preacher. She was an African-American woman in her mid-50s. She called me up and she said, "Well you know what? God put me on your doorstep and if this is God's path for you, then go with God."

What about mentors? Did you have a mentor and, if so, how did they help you?

I had a lot of mentors and people who influenced me. Somebody who had a tremendous influence on me was [openly gay former Washington State Senator] Cal Anderson. Cal and I met when he was in the legislature. One of the things that I took from Cal was the sense of needing to persevere, even when you are the only one, or seemingly the only one, speaking out for a particular issue. For a long time Cal was a lone voice for the community, but he never stopped despite what seemed like insurmountable odds. It's one of those things about looking at the long-range goals. I may not be able to affect this change right this minute, right now, but I may lay the groundwork for something to change 15, 20, 30, or 40 years down the road.

What are some of the changes that you would like to make?

Well, one thing that I really hope that I can do is, if nothing else, to make the judicial system more comfortable for trans people. For the most part, judges in King County are very sensitive. Once you get out of King County, not such nice things happen. There was a case maybe six years ago in Tacoma where a judge refused to sign name change orders for two MTFs [male to female transsexuals] despite the fact that they were there with an attorney. The judge made a number of disparaging remarks about them. He ended up getting disciplined by the Judicial Discipline Committee and had to issue some sort of a formal written apology to the two.

How has being transgender made you a better attorney?

I think it makes me more cognizant of how people want to be treated. One of the things that you hear frequently from trans people is that their identity is being erased because, if they're early in their transition, people don't refer to them by the name that they've chosen for themselves and don't refer to them by appropriate pronouns. And so I think being trans and seeing that happen to people, I try really hard to pay attention to how each person wants to be treated, whoever they are, trans or not. "How do you want to be seen?"

How does that impact the way you approach your practice?

People want to be heard. And that is often why people come to lawyers. They're feeling ignored somewhere. The reality is that most of the stuff that I do probably is the result of people just not being heard. And they just want their day to be heard. Sometimes I think we forget that our title is "attorney and counselor at law," because we actually do a lot of counseling. Why they don't have psychology classes for lawyers I've never understood. A lot of what you do is listen and kind of hold people's hands and tell them "You know what? It's okay. It's okay that you ended up here. You'll move forward."

Can you describe a challenge you faced as a butch or trans attorney and what you did to overcome it?

Absolutely. This is kind of a funny story. It's funny now. It wasn't funny at the time. It was my first year of practice. I had a divorce case. The trial date rolled around and because we had not been assigned to a judge yet, we had to go to presiding [for assignment to a judge]. I was there with my client dressed in my normal everyday attire of wingtips and some trousers, a white shirt and a blue blazer.

And you're presenting as a butch lesbian?

Yes. This was probably 1991. I sat in the courtroom with my client. About 100 people were there. When our case was called, I stood up and acknowledged the judge. The judge looked at me and said, "Well, how long is this going to take?" I said "maybe half a day. It should be very short." He asked, "Alright. And who are you?" I said "I'm counsel for the petitioner, Mr. So-and-so who's sitting right here."

I sat down and as my butt hit the bench he leaned into the microphone and said "Counsel, is there some reason you're not wearing a tie in my courtroom today?" 100 heads – all attorneys -- looked at me. At that point I felt very uncomfortable. I looked up at him and said, "Well, your Honor, I'm a woman. I didn't realize that was part of my dress code." He stammered, "Oh, oh, I'm sorry. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry." I replied, "That's alright your Honor. It happens all the time."

After a few titters from the audience the judge continued. When he came to the second call and he asked me to approach the bench. I thought "Oh my god. Now what?" So I walked up there and the judge said, "Counsel I just wanted to say again I'm very sorry." And I replied, "It's alright your Honor. Don't worry about it." But then he assigned me to a judge I knew was on criminal calendar.

When I got to that judge's courtroom I told her clerk and her bailiff "They sent me down from presiding. I have a presentation of a dissolution to do." They both looked at me and said that she was on the criminal calendar. I explained that I understood she was on the criminal calendar, but that the presiding judge was just very confused and, nevertheless, had assigned my case to her. They both cracked up. As I walked out to get my client, the bailiff said to me "Counsel, I think, you should wear some earrings next time. That might help."